Jolene, Nick, and Rylee on BookTok, Film Adaptations, and Pop Culture

Rylee: Hi, everyone. I’m Rylee, and I’m the interviews and podcast editor for the Long River Review. This is the Long River Rewind.  Jolene: I’m Jolene. I’m a poetry panelist here at the Long River Review.  Nick: And I’m Nick. I’m also on the poetry panel.  Rylee: So, this is the first time we’ve ever really had a podcast conversation quite like this. We normally do interviews, or me monologuing at you. But this is the first time we’re going to try having an organic conversation, and the launchpad for this little talk that we’re going to have today is digital books, BookTok, and books in the digital age.  Jolene: I guess the first thing that’s a buzzword is BookTok. I don’t have TikTok anymore. Ever since you know, I deleted it.  Rylee: I’m addicted to it. Jolene: But when I did have it, I would always see books pop up. And usually, it was Colleen Hoover.  Rylee: I’m so glad you mentioned Colleen. Oh my god.  Jolene: I’ve never read one of her books. Rylee: I have! Jolene: But I hear her name. Her name is always in Barnes and Noble windows. What do you think of her?  Rylee: Oh my gosh. Okay. So my experience of Colleen Hoover is vehemently feeling like, oh, her books must be not very good or very literary because that’s what her reputation is on things like TikTok and the Internet. Everyone’s always bashing her on Goodreads reviews are usually pretty awful. Except for… she has a pretty big fan base, you know, a lot of diehard fans, but a lot of the more literary critics tend to say that her books are just not very good. Not worth reading, even problematic at times.  My best friend from home is not an English major, and not a huge book girlie all the time. But she picked up a Colleen Hoover book from Barnes and Noble, like two summers ago. And she was like, “Oh my gosh, Rylee, I love this so much.” And I’m like, “Well, I trust your judgment, implicitly. I trust judgment more than anyone else’s. You’re my best friend.” So, like she was like “Rylee, you have to read it.” So I did. I took it from her.  And I was kind of like berating it all along. I’m like, “Ah, like whatever you want me to do, Juliet. I’ll read this book if you want me to.” And it was late one night, and I couldn’t sleep. So I picked it up and I started reading it. It was It Ends With Us. And I read it all in one sitting and I couldn’t put it down.  Was it highbrow literature? No. But the suspense was done well in it. I think it had great stakes. I think it had really strong urgency and pacing. I was gripped by the narratives from start to finish. I honestly think it was a really interesting story about abusive relationships and how bad they can be, the toll they can take on your mental health, and what you should do about it if you’re in a situation like that, or if you know someone in a situation like that. So, I genuinely thought it was a suspenseful gripping read.  And there’s more. A couple of weeks later, I picked up another Colleen Hoover book. I’ve only ever read two. This one was called Verity. People describe this book as a departure from what Colleen Hoover usually writes. It was more of a mystery thriller as opposed to… romance with very dark themes in it the way It Ends With Us was. But Verity was a murder mystery thriller. I was super engaged and spooked by it, honestly, from start to finish. I was surprised by the plot twist. The plot twist is honestly so surprising that a lot of reviews describe the plot twist as almost unbelievable. Like, why did this even happen this way?  But I think it’s fun that way. I like it when mysteries and thrillers keep me guessing. And it was another book that I picked up and I read it in one sitting. It was fun. It was entertainment, and why can’t books just be entertainment? But there wasn’t anything wrong with it or problematic that I could find.  Jolene: Why do you think people think of it as not good literature? Like, why, is it like the way it’s written? Is it like, easy, simple language? Rylee: I would say it’s a similar phenomenon to the Twilight thing that happened like 10 years ago. I think a couple of people on the Internet decided that it was bad or not highbrow literature. And there are so many other popular (but not quite as popular) books like that floating around out there. But they’re supposed to be entertainment, and they aren’t necessarily written with every sentence designed to make you feel something to make you parse through it multiple times.  There are so many books just like the Colleen Hoover books, books designed to keep you entertained for a minute and tell a fun story, and then you move on with your day. But because Twilight and the Colleen Hoover books had such a popular, wide fan base, and a couple of people on the Internet decided they were bad, it became almost like an Internet trend to decide these books were bad and not worth liking. And if you liked these books, then you’re somehow less intelligent than other people. I think appreciating a book and having a good time isn’t always that deep. But that’s just me.  Jolene: I read Twilight this summer and I wrote a blog about it.  Rylee: You did? I love Twilight.  Jolene: I also talked about how it wasn’t anything new. Like I said, was it a good book? Yes. Like, was it a well-written book? No. Bella is annoying and it’s very repetitive, but there’s just something about it that grasps you. The romance story. Even though the movies are bad, they also like to grip you. It’s just the story, the plot. It’s also just like the vibe. Rylee: The vibe. The atmosphere. Speaking of TikTok, every so often— and I am a sunshine kind of girl, summer is my favorite season, and I like to be warm all the time— but every so often, these minute-long videos of the Pacific Northwest Gothic aesthetic will pop up my page full of the rain, and the La Push beach, and Forks, Washington, and I find them so soothing. I think there are so many different ways to appreciate media, just appreciating the atmosphere and the aesthetic is what’s important sometimes. I love aesthetics. I love Pinterest. I love the ambiance. I’m here for the vibe. And I think that’s a reason to appreciate something.  I kind of like that Bella is like an everyman character that anyone can latch on to. Everyone says you can project yourself onto her. Well, how is that different from War and Peace? You could project yourself onto Pierre. Like, how is it different? I don’t understand.  Jolene: Exactly.  Nick: Controversial opinion, but I think that War and Peace sucks, too.  Rylee: I liked War and Peace, but not the war part. The war part was boring. I like Anna Karenina. That’s a much better story. Right?  Nick: Yes.  Rylee: Tell me more.  Nick: Okay, so I’m not a big fan of romance books.  Rylee: That’s okay.  Nick: But. Rylee: But.  Nick: But I’ll speak on Twilight first. I was kind of iffy on Twilight at first, but it’s kind of good in an “it’s so bad it’s good” territory. Rylee: Yes! It’s a cult classic. Nick: It’s fun to read. Yeah. Especially like I don’t know, I’m not someone who subscribes to the argument of, “Oh, these books should be considered like literary masterpieces or like books in the literary canon.” I think every book can be considered a valuable piece of literature if you can take something from it. So, I think the whole argument of Colleen Hoover or Twilight is not real literature is very stupid.  Rylee: I feel like it’s an Internet trend. I feel like it’s a trend to hate certain books. And for no reason. I was almost on the Colleen Hoover hate train. I mean, I wasn’t. I was like, “Oh, I’ve just heard that it’s bad.” But I was fully ready to not like the book because the Internet told me not to like the book. Just silly videos of people reading the books and being like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe this is allowed to be on shelves. I can’t believe it sold here.” I saw funny videos. I’m a big fan of the Barnes and Noble TikTok. I think it’s so fun. I follow it. But there are videos of the employees taking the Colleen Hoover books off the shelf. Like haha, trash. Colleen Hoover. I mean, I’ve only read two of the books, and I’m not going to think about them every day, the way I do with some other books. But I thought they were fun for like the moment. I couldn’t sleep, you know?  Jolene: So Nick, you read Twilight? All of them? Nick: I did. The first book, and I watched a few movies. Rylee: The second movie is the best one. I maintain.  Jolene: I agree. And I was watching it with my boyfriend this past spring break. And he said that one was the most boring one to him.  Rylee: What? Jolene: But I was like, you don’t get it, you’re not a girl.  Rylee: It’s for the girls.  Jolene: I was gonna ask if you were team Edward or team Jacob. I don’t know if you have an opinion on it.  Nick: So, which one is the vampire sexy? Rylee: That’s Edward. What about you, Jolene? Jolene: Yeah, I’d have to be on Team Edward. Rylee: Controversial take!  Jolene: Uh-oh.  Rylee: I’m Team Jacob.  Nick: Why? Rylee: I just think he’s a warm ray of sunshine, and I appreciate that. I think with Edward, the age difference is a little bit creepy to me. It always put me off with him.  Nick: Okay, that’s a good point.  Rylee: Although, I’m willing to suspend my disbelief. In fantasy stories about immortal creatures, I’m fine with whatever. It doesn’t bother me that much. But the way he talks about her… to me, it’s just a little bit creepy. I used to be Team Edward is like a kid. When I was very hopelessly romantic. Now I’m kind of like, Jacob, he’s just a nice guy. He cares about her and he’s very… he has a certain je ne sais quoi, I don’t know what to say.  Jolene: He grew on me as I read the books. After reading the books. I think I was a stubborn Team Edward girl, but I see his side more, and I think Bella is kind of the villain in his life because she loves him.  Rylee: Okay, honestly, you’re not wrong. But I think she could have been so good for him. If the Twilight vampires hadn’t inserted themselves and warped her personality. I maintain that vampire Bella is not the original Bella that we see in the early books. My silly, klutzy, relatable girl is gone, and I miss her.  Jolene: I agree. But that’s that’s Twilight.  Rylee: That’s Twilight.  Jolene: The Twilight spiel.  Rylee: Could talk about it forever.  Jolene: But yeah, Colleen Hoover. I don’t know if you’ve seen any other big authors on BookTok. Rylee: Oh, there’s the Alex Aster drama with Lightlark. I honestly don’t know that much about it. Nick, like you said, I’m on the fringes of it a little bit. But it’s another book that experienced the opposite effect of the Colleen Hoover thing.  And also, I don’t know if all this hype can maybe turn itself against you. But that [Lightlark] was a book that got its popularity before was even released. It became super popular on TikTok. And that was why it was published. It’s just what I heard. And she got a publishing deal from TikTok as a debut author for her fantasy novel. It’s a dystopia set on an island, kind of Hunger Games-esque, except with the rulers of different kingdoms with a romance. Like, you know. Like formulaic fantasy nowadays. Not in a bad way, in a way, that people enjoy, but that was what it was.  And then it came out, and it was so hyped. There are videos of Alex Aster hanging out with Chloe Gong, who wrote Foul Lady Fortune, and oh, what’s the one with Romeo and Juliet set in Shanghai? I think it was a great, great book but… here, Jolene’s looking it up for me. But there are videos of Chloe Gong, a very famous author, a very, very popular (for her actual writing!), and Alex Aster hanging out together and being like writer buddies. Jolene: These Violent Delights. Rylee: These Violent Delights. Big fan. I love Chole Gong. But Alex Aster and Chloe Gong were hanging out, and then Lightlark came out, and people were… underwhelmed, to say the least. And would they have had that reaction? If the book hadn’t had such a wave of popularity before it even came out? Would people even have read it? I haven’t read this book. Was it good? Was it bad? I don’t know. I think it’s subjective, with the Internet reacting to the popularity of the book and the fact that it’s so widely known. I think people were willing to criticize it the same way they were with Colleen Hoover and Twilight.  Jolene: I wonder… like, if TikTok were around with Harry Potter, before it came out, or while it came out? Like, how crazy the trends would have been. Rylee: Oh my god, that would have been crazy. I don’t know.  Jolene: There’s the whole Harry Potter experience.  Rylee: I love Harry Potter, too.  Jolene: I never read it.  Rylee: We’ve got to talk about Harry Potter.  Nick: I don’t know how you cannot have read Harry Potter. It’s like Star Wars, Jolene. Have you at least seen the movies?  Jolene: No, I have not. Rylee: You would love them if you liked the atmosphere of Twilight. The atmosphere is huge in those books.  Nick: I think the books are like some of the best books in terms of atmosphere, and in terms of how the journey the characters go on throughout the books. You start with these young kids, and by the end, you’ve grown up with them. I think that’s why it’s so popular with, like… I read it in middle school or something… Jolene: Like Millenials, right?  Nick: You kind of grow up with the characters. I don’t know. It’s just a fun world. Floating candles. Spells.  Rylee: Oh my gosh, I love those books. I got into them when I was seven, and I’ve never not been into them. I’ve been to Universal. I love being immersed in the world. Speaking of being immersed in the world, I think Harry Potter on TikTok is such an interesting thing to consider. Because reader engagement has done so much with that world.  Has anyone been on Marauders TikTok? It’s this whole universe that readers created themselves. JK Rowling had nothing to do with it. JK Rowling wrote, starting in the third Harry Potter book, an intricate backstory of Harry Potter’s parents and their little friend group, with Sirius and Lupin and all those. It’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but I love them, and the readers created such intricate fanfiction. One reader even wrote this long series of books, called the first one was called… what was it called? It’s based on a song from the 70s, and it was all about the Marauders and Harry Potter’s parents when they were young.  *Cue Jolene searching for the title on her laptop* Rylee: Jolene’s got me. It’s the Harry Potter Marauders fanfiction, and it’s a book written by… “misskingbean” is the name of the fanfic author. She’ll find it for me. It’s a book that people buy, and it’s bound, too. Like, the actual book. Legally, can’t sell it.  Jolene: All the Young Dudes? Rylee: All the Young Dudes, that’s what it’s called. It’s based on the song. But the book was so popular, this fanfic book, and also just other fanfiction that have been written by other people. People on TikTok create intricate acting and aesthetic videos based on them that look almost cinematic in their quality.  Jolene: I’ve seen those.  Rylee: And they’re hella long. They’re like a minute and a half long, and they’re beautifully shot and so immersive in the world. Another thing is like those Pacific Northwestern Gothic videos. I’m a really big fan of watching the Marauders videos.  There are also so many subsets of that fandom on TikTok. There’s the “House of Black” side of things, where they take Sirius Black, Narcissa, Andromeda, and all the sisters, and they made this whole… they’ve made this whole like TV show, and it’s a little bit of a darker take on [Harry Potter], which I think is so compelling. I love being on this side of TikTok. I think it’s so creative and artistic, and I love what they’ve done with the original content.  Jolene: I just think it’s crazy that even though I haven’t read any of the books or seen any of the movies, I still have so much Harry Potter knowledge that was force-fed to me by being a human. I don’t think there’s any other book that has had that much of a pop culture influence. Nick: It’s the most successful book in the last 100 years. Rylee: It has a theme park. An incredible theme park.  Jolene: I think if someone likes Harry Potter, whether they’re a kid or an adult, you know it. Like, it’s part of their personality. But that’s not to say it’s a bad thing. I think it’s great that people have fun with it.  Rylee: As an icebreaker question in one of my clubs, I asked everybody what their Hogwarts house was, even people who hadn’t read the books. They all could tell me. Yeah, it was like eleven people, a much more mainstream crowd than the Long River Review. Not everybody was artsy and super into books, but everybody could tell me. They could tell me their Hogwarts house, and I thought that was kind of beautiful.  Jolene: What are you? Rylee: I’m a Ravenclaw, of course. People always think I’m a Hufflepuff.  Jolene: I was gonna say, you’re a Hufflepuff.  Rylee: That’s my secondary house. What about you guys? Nick: What would you be, Jolene? Jolene: I think Ravenclaw, too. I don’t know. That to me feels more studious, right? Like I said, I’ve never read the books, but they all have their own thing. Like the evil one… Rylee: Slytherin. That’s the sinister, evil house. But also ambitious, and cunning, there’s a big debate on the Internet as to whether everybody who is a Slytherin is naturally a little bit evil or not. What about you, Nick?  Nick: I like to think I’m a Ravenclaw. But every time I’ve taken the Pottermore test, I’ve gotten Slytherin.  Rylee: I don’t believe in the Pottermore quiz. That one doesn’t tell you anything about your actual personality. It’s like, oh, you walk into a room and what do you do? I don’t know what I do when I walk into a room. I sounded like a Gryffindor just now. But I maintain that I’m a Ravenclaw until I die. Not because I only have Ravenclaw merch and I don’t want to get new merch. But yeah, I think it’s so much fun.  Jolene: I agree. Rylee: I love Harry Potter. I have a wand. I was Hermione multiple years in a row for Halloween when I was a kid. Big fan.  Jolene: I had a thought when you were talking about the fanfiction of Harry Potter. Rylee: Yeah. Jolene: I think fanfiction has so much sway… like, do you know this book? It was like a Harry Potter… oh no, not Harry Potter. Sorry, Harry Styles.  Rylee: Oh my god. After? Yes. I have never read it or seen it, but, to be fair, I think my dislike of this one is grounded. Because I’ve seen clips of it. And I’m so… I just can’t with some of the dialogue. I don’t like that relationship at all. I think it’s so disgusting.  Jolene: I just think it’s so cool that someone wrote a story. That is another story.  Rylee: That is cool.  Jolene: It just made its way into that kind of universe.  Rylee: I do respect. I might not like the vibes of the story. I mean, there are so many books [in that series] that are talking about the same topic over and over again. But it’s like another thing that’s funny to watch with other people, kind of like Twilight. You throw popcorn at the TV screen and have a good time with it. And I think it’s so great that this woman, this author, wrote this book in the notes of her phone. I have heard about this. She was writing in the notes of her phone in the grocery store line. And I think that’s beautiful. That’s amazing. Jolene: Going back to Twilight. 50 Shades of Grey was originally a Twilight fanfiction. Rylee: It was. Jolene: Someone was like, I’m gonna make this saucier, and then it became 50 Shades of Grey. Rylee: Did you guys know that they’re gonna make a new Twilight TV show? There’s not much announced about it. But I, for one, would love to see it. I would love to see them correct certain things. I want to see them correct their portrayal of Native American culture. I think that would be huge. That’s pretty important because I’m a big fan of the media, but I definitely can critique it and want to critique it.  I think there’s a lot they could do with expanding some of the storylines of the female characters, too. I think Esme deserves a better storyline, she’s the kind of mother figure in the Twilight family, which I think is bad, that she’s just reduced to that. I think she could be so much more. I think there could be a lot more done with Bella’s parents and the way she was raised, because I think that was a little problematic, and it needs to be explored more. Jolene: They need to give her a better wig.  Rylee: A better wig would be great.  Jolene: And the baby.  Rylee: Oh my god, and you know what needs to be explored more? Jasper being a literal— Rylee and Jolene at the same time: A Confederate soldier! Jolene: I didn’t know that until reading the books. Rylee: It’s fine to have that plot point. But like, let’s unpack it. Let’s give it some critical attention. Yeah, okay, he was fighting in the Civil War. Okay, he was a Confederate soldier. And I was like, oh, okay, either change him to the other side or let’s explore it a little more and critically assess that. Have that be a real plot point that gets some critical attention in that story.  Jolene: Yeah, it’d be great if Stephenie Meyer could go back in and rehash some things. Rylee: Oh, Stephenie.  Jolene: It’s still, like, put it in a museum and frame it you know? It was a work of its time.  Rylee: Stephanie, my problematic fave. There’s so much you could have done differently, but I respect what you’ve created. Jolene: But yeah, let’s see. BookTok. Twilight. Harry Potter.  Rylee: You know what I am against? There’s going to be a new Harry Potter TV show, too. I am against that because there’s nothing to correct. The movies were fantastic. With Twilight, there’s much you can redo, and there’s so much to dive into once again, even though I love the movies. Diehard fan. But there’s a lot more that can be fixed and corrected, better representations that we can see. But you can’t fix the Harry Potter movies. There’s nothing to be fixed. They’re fantastic.  Nick: Yeah, you just can’t replace any replace those. Not gonna have anyone else play Snape, other than Alan Rickman.  Rylee: You know who they’re having? Oh, this is another good jumping-off point. But they’re having Adam Driver play Snape.  Nick: Isn’t that Kylo Ren?  Rylee: Yes. And you know what, I am a big romance novel fan. And if you have you guys ever heard of those books? They’re called the STEMinist novels, and they’re like these STEM romances. What was the first one called? The cover has a picture of a guy who looks exactly like Adam Driver and a girl who looks exactly like the girl from Star Wars on the cover. Find it for me.  *Cue Jolene scouring the Internet again* Rylee: By Ali Hazelwood. Yes, the book is called… scroll, scroll, scroll. Look up The Love Hypothesis. This is not part of the STEMinist novellas. That’s a separate thing. Her name is Ali Hazelwood. The Love Hypothesis was the book that started at all, and that was the first STEM romance that she wrote. It was a full-length novel. I was mixing it up with the STEMinist novellas, which are a separate thing.  Yes, she also wrote three full-length STEM novels, The Love Hypothesis, Love on the Brain, and Love, Theoretically. The Love Hypothesis is a retelling of Kylo Ren and Rey [from Star Wars].  Is there an actual romance in the Star Wars movies? I’m not a Star Wars person. I’ve never seen a Star Wars movie. But it’s a fanfiction.  Nick: I guess I’m in the minority for this one.  Rylee: You’re gonna have to talk about this. But The Love Hypothesis is a fanfiction of Star Wars. It’s a fantastic story about a PhD student who, um, falls in love with her professor.  Nick and Jolene: Woah!  Rylee: It’s a questionable concept, but it’s a good romance. I think it’s a good book. And it’s a problem, but they’re both adults, and they’re within like 10 years of each other. So, it’s like whatever. She’s a PhD student. It’s not like, you know. It’s not a child. There are things I like to overlook about the things that I enjoy. And the other books veer away from that strange dynamic. So, Ali, you improved, it’s okay. But anyway, Nick, tell me about Star Wars.  Nick: What do you want to know about Star Wars?  Rylee: Is it an actual romance between Rey and Kylo Ren? Or did Ali Hazelwood just create that out of thin air?  Nick: It’s kind of weird, right? So there’s initially no romance in the first movie. In the first new sequel that came out, there’s no romance. And then they have this weird thing going on where they talk to each other through the force or some magical power. It’s kind of romantic but not really. Rylee: Oh? Nick: And then JJ Abrams comes back and there’s no romance again.  Rylee: Who’s JJ Abrams? Nick: He’s a famous director. He directed the first movie. Rylee: Okay. Nick: Actually, maybe there is romance in the third one, though, now that I’m thinking about it.  Jolene: There’s so many of them. Do they come out in order of the storyline? Honestly, I have no idea of anything about Star Wars. Did each movie come out, like, one, two, three?  Nick: Four, five, and six came out first, then one, two, and three. Then seven, eight, and nine.  Jolene: Why? Why did they do that?  Nick: Well, four, five, and six are the original story, and then one, two, and three are the prequels, telling the story of Darth Vader. Rylee (with way too much excitement): Anakin! Nick: And then seven, eight, and nine are like the sequels when everyone’s older.  Jolene: Hmm. I didn’t know that. It’s not based on a book, right? Those are just straight-up movies. I was gonna say, that’s why I don’t know about the world-building. Harry Potter almost has its world. Star Wars has its people, people who love Star Wars.  Rylee: It has a little section in Hollywood Studios at Disney World.  Jolene: Exactly. That’s crazy. We take stories like that and people will live them out.  Rylee: It’s so funny, because, again, I haven’t even really been exposed to Star Wars. I saw part of a movie once, the first one with Rey and Kylo Ren, but I had no stake in it. I had no idea what the Star Wars universe was about. So, it’s hard to like jump in. I just couldn’t get invested. But I think I would like it if I started from the beginning, but it’s a big time commitment. Anyway.  But I love Disney World. And I love going to the Star Wars section of Hollywood Studios, experiencing that, and being immersed in it.  Just yesterday, I was working on a short story for my hybrid fiction class. I was listening to instrumental songs, getting in the mood, you know, as I always do when I’m writing. And Princess Leia’s Theme came on. I had never heard it before. And I’m like, “This is so beautiful,” like, tears streaming down my face as I’m writing this little story. It got me in the creative headspace. I was just getting in the feels, listening to this beautiful instrumental song that I’d heard for the first time. And I was enjoying it. It sparked my artistic creation. So, it’s funny how different media can spur creative moments within you, even if you don’t know much about them. Just the pervasive influence they’ve had throughout our world.  Jolene: Do you usually listen to music when you write?  Rylee: I always do. But always instrumentals, and sometimes it doesn’t work and I have to turn it off. Usually, because I’m getting grumpy. If I’m in a good mood and the writing is going well, then I’m heavy-listening to movie scores. Always movie scores. I’m a big fan of movie scores. Jolene: Do you, Nick?  Nick: I like to try to listen to music, but then I end up turning it off because I get no words. It all jumbles.  Jolene: Yeah, it’s surprising, but I can write essays while listening to like music with words. Rylee: With words? Okay, that’s a skill.  Jolene: I know. I think I’m just so overstimulated by my brain.  Rylee: I could do it with math homework. I liked to listen to musicals from start to finish doing math homework. I love doing math homework or organizational work, like admin, organizing a spreadsheet, or anything like that, and when I do, I love to listen to musicals. That’s when I can listen to pop, and I think that’s fun to do.  Nick: Do you have a favorite musical? Rylee: Oh my god. I think Wicked, and I feel like a pretty stereotypical answer. But for good reason. I love the Wicked book. I think it’s so wonderful, very different from the musical, but I love Elphaba and Glinda. I think they’re wonderful. And I love the music so much. I love lots of musicals. Let me open my musicals playlist. I want to tell you guys what I like. I’m terrible because I can’t remember anything that I enjoy unless I’m looking directly at it. But let me open my musicals playlist. Jolene: Have you ever seen it [Wicked] in person?  Rylee: I saw it when I was in fourth grade. And it’s coming to the Bushnell in the spring, and I’m so excited.  Jolene: I was in eighth grade.  Rylee: Oh, did you love it?  Jolene: It was awesome. It was so good.  Rylee: Let me tell you what else I like. I also really like Moulin Rouge, Phantom of the Opera. I like Anastasia, and I love Les Mis. And Mamma Mia is my favorite. Jolene: Hamilton?  Rylee: Of course, I went through my Hamilton phase, in 20-whatever it was. I was super, super obsessed. I was insufferable. Oh, the Legally Blonde musical is so good. Mean Girls. Anything from Glee at all. Okay, I’m gonna get out of this playlist before I accidentally start playing it and ruin our podcast. Not really. I could edit it out.  Jolene: Did you watch the new Mean Girls?  Rylee: No, I haven’t had the chance. Has anyone seen it?  Jolene: I heard it was the musical version.  Nick: I’ve seen clips. I think it looks good.  Rylee: But I don’t like the weird electronica score that’s now behind everything. Like give me back— Nick: Oh, I’m a Mean Girls apologist. Rylee: Oh, I love anything Mean Girls, too. But they took the lovely score backing the stage musical and they replaced it with a much more electronic, artificial-sounding backing, which I didn’t love. Like, I just really liked the stage version, I liked the sound of it better.  But Renee Rapp. Oh my god, I love Renee Rapp. And I also like what Avantika did with Karen, and I thought that was wonderful. I loved the whole dance break moment and the new song that she sings for Halloween. I think that’s great.  Jolene: She [Renee Rapp] plays, what’s her name? The main girl. Rylee: Regina. Yeah, she’s she’s awesome. I love her. Such power ballads coming from her. What are our favorite songs from Mean Girls musical? Jolene: I don’t think I even know it that well, to give you a song.  Rylee: There are so many good ones. I like “Sexy” a lot, which is the Halloween song. And I like “World Burn.” And I really like… what’s the one she sings when she’s angry with what’s his name? Oh, you know what I’m talking about? Nick: Isn’t that the one for Halloween? Rylee: It’s not the one for Halloween. Yeah, I’m gonna open Spotify again. And risk blasting music everywhere. Yes, I like “Someone Gets Hurt.” That’s probably my favorite one. “Revenge Party” is also really good.  Jolene: Oh, that just reminded me. I think the person that plays one of the characters in the Mean Girls movie, he’s in The Summer I Turned Pretty. He is the one who plays Conrad.  Rylee: Oh, that’s the book by the same one who wrote the one with the letters. Jenny Han. Yes. I never read any of the books, but I’m a huge fan of the movies. To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before. The first one is the best. Oh, and did anybody anybody else watch that show about her little sister? XO, Kitty. I thought it was amazing. And that got me into K-dramas for the first time, because it was almost like a K-drama, but like an Americanized version. That introduced me to what they were as a genre, which is cool. We love the genre-bending, we love hybrid narratives. Jolene: So, I guess she had two book-series-to-movie adaptations. Yeah, shows. Did you guys like the To All the Boys movies?  Rylee: I love those movies. The first one is the best in the series. The spin-off with her little sister is also fantastic. Jolene: Do you think you’ve ever watched a movie that was better than the book? Because I don’t know if I have.  Nick: I mean, I have, I just can’t remember off the top of my head.  Jolene: Because everyone will always say the book was better than the movie.  Rylee: The Shadow and Bone series was, I think. As far as Six of Crows goes, the books were better than the show. But I think the show was better than the original Shadow and Bone books. The show took the two series and melded them together in a way that was creative and attention-grabbing. It kept the suspense going well. So, I think the Shadow and Bone series adaptation was a lot better.  I just thought of something. Oh my god, you know what show is better than the books? The Bridgerton show. Is anyone else excited about that? It’s also a book series. Yes. But I only read like, like snatches of the books. So again, like not in a position to judge, because that was my exposure to Colleen Hoover before I read her stuff, and I was very judgmental against her. But there are some problematic elements of the Bridgerton books, you know, the whole thing with the first book. Some like things that were very much of their time, and a little bit… I don’t want to mention it on this podcast. Inappropriate things. But the thing is that the show changed them, and also… oh my God, I can’t believe haven’t said it yet, but the racial representation, the diversity, that was something wonderful and revolutionary that the show did with the colorblind casting. I know it’s a hot, very controversial topic, but I think it’s done well on the show, and I’m a big fan of it. And that’s something that was not present at all in the books. Jolene: I like the show. The newest one, season three, is coming out soon, right? With— Rylee: Nicola Coughlin, my love. Penelope! Jolene: And who was the other one?  Rylee: Colin. Yeah, it’s their love story.  Jolene: And it’s coming out soon?  Rylee: Yes, with Penelope and Colin, it’s coming out in two parts. The show hasn’t done that before, but the first part is coming out in May. It’s such a springtime show, with all the flowers, the aesthetic, the bright colors.  I also have been a diehard Jane Austen fan since I was very young. Since I was in middle school. I love the Jane Austen fanfics. I went to the Jane Austen Conference of North America last semester. That’s how much I love Jane Austen.  And this [Bridgerton] isn’t Jane Austen. This is a much more fantastical, unrealistic, elite crowd, but of the same time period, the Regency Era. I’m a big fan of exploring the historical aspect of that period.  Jolene: What do you do at the Jane Austen conference?  Rylee: It’s fantastic. It’s a combination of, like, a Comicon type of thing and an academic conference. So, there are prestigious professors and scholars of Jane Austen giving lectures and talks, and you can ask them questions. But there’s also like a dance at a ball, and they sell merch. They do all sorts of fun events, and you can also take, like, a watercolor painting class. And it was the most beautiful resort. It was in Colorado. I won the essay contest, which is why I got to go. I didn’t pay for it. I did not pay to fly to Colorado. But you guys should enter because it’s such a fun time.  Jolene: Yeah, that seems awesome.  Rylee: Yeah. I loved it. I think it’s so cool what people do, adapting different pieces of media and getting excited about them over several centuries. Yeah. Amazing.  Nick: What’s your favorite Jane Austen book?  Rylee: Emma. I think it’s the funniest. And I think she’s the funniest main character. She reminds me of myself, the evil side of myself. I love her. I love the way she’s kind of mean to people and feels bad about it. I think she has great character growth. I think she’s a very funny narrator who knows what she wants, and she’s very unconventional for her time. She’s this pretty, popular, wealthy girl who goes into the story deciding very vehemently that she’s not going to get married because she doesn’t want to, and she doesn’t need that social status because she’s enough by herself. And she ends up getting married anyway because it’s the formula of these novels, but it’s to someone that she genuinely falls in love with without really meaning to. So, I loved that book. I reread that book every year. Jolene: I’ve only ever read Pride and Prejudice. There was a Netflix movie that came out of Pride and Prejudice. With Dakota Johnson.  Rylee: That was Persuasion. Oh my God, people had so much to say about that one. Nobody liked it. Jolene: I like Dakota Johnson. Rylee: I love Dakota Johnson. I would do anything for Dakota Johnson. Have you guys seen her limes video? It was in a tour video of her house. She had a staged bowl of limes sitting out, and she was like, “It’s because I love limes.” Later, in an interview with Ellen or someone, she was like, “I hate limes. I’m allergic to them.” And we’re like, “Oh my God, Dakota.” You’re so silly.  But I love Dakota Johnson. She was the only good thing about that movie. They should have had Henry Golding play Captain Wentworth. They had him play, like, the dastardly Mr. whatever-his-name-was. Mr. Elliott. They had him play Mr. Elliott instead of the actual love interest, and how can you have Henry Golding in a movie and have him not play the love interest? How can you have some other guy? Henry Golding is gonna overshadow any other man on the screen. Like, you can’t have it. He’s a fantastic actor. And he’s just really good-looking. Like, how could you not have him play the love interest? Jolene: It was just crazy. Because I had to read Persuasion for my Brit Lit class last year.  Rylee: You did? Jolene: Yeah. So, I watched the movie and I thought it could have been done well, but they did it badly. Yeah, they tried to make it funny in a non-funny way that they thought people would relate to. Rylee: It turned to my stomach. The way they tried to use humor in that movie. They made a weird show of it. And why were there rabbits? Do you remember the rabbits? Yeah. Like, why were they all petting rabbits the entire time? I’m like, there are no rabbits in Persuasion.  Jolene: No, it was not in the book. I was like, I missed something. Rylee: They were trying to be quirky and make some sort of statement for their adaptation of persuasion. And then… bunnies. Like, that’s what you thought? You thought adding some random, off-putting rabbits to your show would make it good?  Jolene: Maybe Dakota just wanted to hang out with some bunnies on set. Rylee: I would respect it more if that were the reason. Jolene: Make it make more sense. Nick: Yeah. Yeah.  Jolene: Nick, do you have a favorite one?  Nick: Jane Austen book? Jolene: Yeah.  Nick: Pride and Prejudice, probably. Mr. Darcy is my man crush. Rylee: It’s a good one! I love Mr. Darcy. He’s great. I think he’s probably the best Jane Austen man, even though Emma’s my favorite heroine. Oh, but Elizabeth is also great. She’s also a great heroine. I think Emma’s my favorite book, but I think all the heroines are great. I think Emma and Elizabeth are pretty on par with each other. Mr. Darcy’s the best love interest, though.  Jolene: Yeah, another great rendition in movie form. Rylee: Agreed.  Jolene: The little hand-tweak scene. Rylee: So good. What are our thoughts on the 1995 version vs. the 2005 version with Keira Knightley? I love Keira Knightley. I love Pirates of the Caribbean. I love her in Pride and Prejudice. I love her in Anna Karenina, that’s a beautiful adaptation of that book. I love anything Keira Knightley does, and I love the 2005 Pride and Prejudice. The atmosphere is done so well. I love the emotionality of it. Even though maybe the characters weren’t as faithfully drawn and too many plot points are left out. I still think it’s iconic and fantastic, and its praise is well-deserved, and the score was absolutely beautiful. But if you’re looking for authenticity, the 1995 version is where it’s at. I think both can be appreciated for very different reasons. And I think each of them, honestly, was equally well done. Jolene: I’ve never seen the 1995 version. Rylee: Oh my God, you should see it. It’s a six-hour BBC miniseries. It’ll take you multiple days. Unless you’re like really sad and you wanna eat some ice cream. I’ve been there. Watching it all in one sitting, I don’t recommend it. It’s a really good series that’s got the iconic scene of Colin Firth jumping into a lake and his shirt sticking to his chest. There’s a literal statue of him that you can go visit well in England by like the house where it was filmed. Jolene: It’s crazy how much impact these books have had in real life. It’s awesome. Rylee: I love it so much. Nick: More impact back in their younger days. Rylee: Back in the day.  Jolene: Yeah, people don’t read books that much anymore. When I go to the bookstore, or even Barnes and Noble… actually, you know what, I’m gonna take that back. There are a lot of people at Barnes and Noble all the time. Rylee: There really are! Jolene: Honestly, I was going to say no one reads books anymore, but that’s not true.  Nick: I think they do. I think it’s 50/50. I know some friends that haven’t touched a book in like six years. Rylee: Oh, me too. They think it’s like a flex. I’m like, it’s not a flex. It’s not. Jolene: No, definitely. I mean, social media obviously kind of took over, you know.  Rylee: But I think social media has brought reading back, in a way. I think it’s become a trend to be a reader. And some people are like, “Oh, I liked it before it’s cool. You shouldn’t like reading because it’s cool.” But, whatever! Whatever gets people to read. It’s fine. Jolene: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I read a lot growing up because I was always reading fanfiction. Rylee: Me too.  Jolene: Like, I wasn’t really into books. I was into fanfiction, but that’s another whole different genre. Rylee: It’s like another genre of story. They’re all stories, it’s all the written word. It’s beautiful.  Jolene: It’s cool. A lot of fanfiction turned into real books. It’s cool. I mean, all literature is awesome. Rylee: It’s why we’re English majors. And I think that might be a great note to leave on… because we are at 40 minutes. Can you believe we’ve been talking for that long? My goal was like 30 minutes or 25. But you know, I’ll take 40 minutes. I’m sure there are plenty of gaps in our conversations, points where I was incoherently giggling that we can that we can slice. That will be a lot of editing for me later, but I think we’ll sign off for now.  So thank you all for listening, and we’ll see you next time. Everyone: Bye!